Interviewing Charlie Brooker could be a daunting task. I mean, he's a hero to many. He's one of my favourite writers. However, somewhere in my synapses, I'd convinced myself along the way that we'd get along just fine. If you peer through the acerbic slights in Brooker's work, I always got the impression he was a really nice bloke... an approachable chap... the kind I'd get on with just fine. I imagine that I'm not alone in that feeling. So was he nice? Is he a really funny bloke? Is he as self deprecating as we all thought? Or is he a black hearted media bastard? In preparation for his new show, Newswipe with Charlie Brooker (tonight, BBC Four, 10.35pm), I set about finding out...
After getting cut off from our awkward and mutually bumbling hellos, Charlie returned to the conversation with a strange tale. In the seconds it took to call him back, he told me that someone was showing him a picture of their sister. After I enquired whether this "beautiful lady" was being offered to him, Brooker replied, "Under no circumstances... a categorical 'no'... they're not even joking", and so, our interview began.
Mof Gimmers: What's the new show like?
Charlie Brooker: Hopefully, good.
MG: You've got some pretty stiff competition... looking at your TV critiques, you've been pretty much on your own, taking the piss outta everything, but with the news stuff, you're wading into a long line of brilliant British satire like The Day Today, Have I Got News For You?, Yes Minister... I was wondering if you were sh****** your pants?
CB: I wasn't until you put it like that.
MG : Ah.
CB: I think this is sort of... different. The sections that I'm in, in Newswipe, are going to be similar to what I do in Screenwipe, in that I'm reviewing the news as if it was an entertainment show...
MG: So you're reviewing the format as opposed to the stories?
CB: We will be covering those topics... but I'm looking at how it's shown to us, if you see what I mean?
MG: You did something similar on Screenwipe with the Madeleine McCann thing... is it going to be like that?
CB: That kind of area... but we will be explaining the stories as well I hope. I suppose the main difference between what we're doing and say, for want of a better term, a Radio 4 political satire, is that they know what they're talking about whereas I come from a position where... I think I'm like most people... I'm not actually very well informed...
MG: You say that... but I don't buy it. You've clearly got a decent brain in that head of yours...
CB: No. This show will prove once and for all that I've been winging it. I mean, with current affairs, the people that make it are across all these stories and they know all the background because they've had to cover it and if they don't know it will find it out and then act like they knew it all along...
MG: And you're not gonna bother?
CB: [laughs] Well, I am... and getting people to tell me... but I'm making no bones about the fact that I think it's okay to admit you don't know and that you want to know. I mean, you tune into the news these days and it's like you've stumbled across episode 908 of a soap that's been running for ages. You won't know the background unless you've done a lot of reading and you've followed everything... because, the way the news is presented to you now it's become... it slides alongside more easily... I'm not saying it's become an entertainment show... but it does feel like that. There's a lot of things you don't question when you're watching it. Why do they have a cavernous set? It's all there to reinforce that This Is Important.
MG: I remember you did an article a while back where you said that you'd noticed that the ITV News was presented from a giant rune...
CB: IT WAS!
MG: So you're picking stuff like that to pieces?
CB: I suppose I'll be looking at it like A.N. Other show really.... and treat it with the contempt and disrespect it deserves accordingly. I mean, I won't be saying it's all shit and rubbish and they're all hopeless... I mean... I wouldn't go to a bloody war zone for a report! Hopefully, it won't be unrelentingly negative.
MG: Do you get wound up when people think you hate everything? I mean, I know what it's like... you do this job and everyone thinks you hate everything and you can't do this job unless you love it on some level...
CB: Exactly! When you're negative it's usually a result of disappointment. Sometimes things can be bad and you enjoy how bad they are... everyone does that... I mean, I've never thought of myself as a critic, more a writer who is trying to be entertaining... and when I'm doing Screenwipe or Screen Burn, my subject just happens to be television. What you're doing, when you're slagging something off, you're doing the equivalent of sitting there watching something with a mate and turning 'round and saying "They might as well call this Coronation Shit, hur hur hur." It's effectively that. If it was that bad, you wouldn't watch it at all.
MG: Is there any news shows you prefer? I mean, the news seems to be aiming at a younger market and really, no young person in their right mind cares about the news as they're too busy running around with bags of glue and trying to finger girls or whatever...
CB: People are trying to finger girls while watching the news?
MG: Unless you really like Jon Snow's tie and socks combo...
CB: I thought that's what you said!
MG: Really, that's not what I said... but I'm happy to be misquoted on that. I said that young people are more interested in that, rather than keeping up with current affairs or something...
CB: That's thrown me a bit. When we were doing the pilot and I watched a lot more news than I had in a long time... I was really impressed by Nick Paton-Walsh doing some stuff for Channel 4 News that I really liked. There were a lot of good things in there and, even in what you might think as quite mainstream news, like ITN... ITV... even though it's quite bombastic, they still have some good stuff.
MG: Do you look at the news shows in the same way you look at newspapers... I mean, sometimes, there's nothing I like more than getting irritated by the Daily Mail or The Sun...
CB: We are going to look at newspapers as well... I mean, there's no What The Papers Say anymore. We can't be that topical with the newspapers, weirdly... it's more difficult to do that...
MG: Why is that? Is it because of the length of time it takes to make a show and thereby some stuff will be out of date by the time it gets to screen?
CB: Yeah, in a way... because with the news stories, we're going to be looking back on things that have happened the preceding week. Obviously, there's a lot of unknowns with the show because I don't know what's going to happen...
MG: So are you praying for some horrendous disaster?
CB: I'm hoping for the most depressing horrible humanitarian disaster the week we go on air.
MG: How about the filming?
CB: Contributor pieces are done earliest... but my links and the bits in my flat will be done at the last minute.
MG: Do you think it's important to include those bits in your flat? I do. It shows what it's like to be sat at home, screaming at your telly wishing you were doing something more worthwhile...
CB: Yeah... 'I wish my life was better'... It is depressing because it's just me and a camera. In other interviews, people think it's a set! If it was a set, you would've thought we'd made it a bit nicer.
MG: I noticed you had the addition of three random clocks behind your head in your flat when watching the last series of Screenwipe...
CB: You know why that is? When we did the pilot for Newswipe, I put them there so it felt a bit more 'newsy'. I was supposed to take them down before we did Screenwipe but the night before filming, I realised I'd put them up with sticky fixers and that, if I pulled them down I'd be left with holes in the paint and left with three mucky marks... I thought I better leave them up.
MG: You think you're getting good at this telly lark then? Because you've been at it longer than a lot of people think...
CB: What I realised the other day was that I started doing the TV Go Home site on 19th March 1999... literally ten years ago. I might do a new one to commemorate that. Before that I was doing presenting... I suppose it's for other people judge whether I'm any good or not... I mean, part of the reason for doing this, Newswipe, rather than another series of Screenwipe... which I'm hoping do more of incidentally, is that I just thought it's out of my comfort zone... it's not something I know about. I'm genuinely worried that I'm going to make myself look like an idiot... but then that's quite fun to do that. The thing with doing Dead Set was, I was terrified because I'd never written anything like it before.
MG: Being someone who has been largely known for...
CB: Being rude about things?
MG: Precisely. As a result of that, you must be hyper-sensitive about what you do on TV?
CB: Probably, and hyper-critical as well... hypocritical probably too... I think that a lot of criticism is... it's just one persons opinion as they say... but anything you read or has been written about you is nothing compared to the doubting voices in your head anyway as you're trying to create something.
MG: I was thinking along the lines of... I know you've contributed to programmes in the past... I mean... quite how you got to work with Chris Morris is beyond me...
CB: You know how I met Chris? It was through Gia who was my co-presenter on The Kit. She was, at the time, her boyfriend was Michael Cumming who was the director of Brass Eye. She had party and...
MG: It was a dinner party... admit it!
CB: It was, with sushi and everything.
MG: I guess what I was getting at... with Nathan Barley, it must've been easier tackling a project like that knowing Chris Morris was on board
CB: Daunting in that neither of us had done a 'narrative' thing at that time... and obviously I had a lot less experience than him... so it was still daunting. A certain amount of people had an impression of who Nathan Barley was already... and actually, our TV incarnation was quite different.
MG: I thought the show was quite different from what I expected.
CB: Well, what we said was, in the listings, he was a c***, in the show he was a prick. That was the difference. He was a lot colder in the listings... but he wasn't really a character, more of an object... like Patrick Bateman in American Psycho.
MG: The only character I could relate to in the show was Claire Ashcroft I thought...
CB: Weirdly, I was going to write Claire into Dead Set... for a giggle... but I didn't.
MG: What I was getting at before though, is that, are you getting more used to being a celebrity of sorts. I mean, you did 'How To Watch TV' and only appeared in the press accompanied by a cartoon blob... and now you're a face presenting things... are you getting used to being recognised?
CB: That's happening more often now... it's weird... I was rude to someone for the first time...
MG: A complete stranger?!
CB: Yeah... I mean... I've just quit smoking
MG: Surely the worst time to quit if you're covering the news?
CB: Yeah I know... what an idiot. Somebody just wanted to talk to me and I wasn't in the mood... I just wanted to sit down and read a paper and listen to my iPod... and they sort of wouldn't go away and I was rude and felt a bit bad.
MG: I think if you're rude to people, they'll let you off for a certain amount of your life because they'll know you'll go away feeling awful about it...
CB: I would! I can see why people go a bit mental in TV. The weird thing I've noticed about being noticed is that you don't want to be big headed but you realise it is happening but like, if you're having a piss at a urinal, you don't want the person stood next to you to start having a conversation... I mean, if you imagine it, sometimes you just don't want random people coming talking to you anyway. I don't think there's that many people who recognise me but the ones that do feel like they can come and talk to me are generally very nice. I don't mind at all... they're usually very nice and weirdly apologetic.
MG: A lot of your fans... I mean, I don't want to turn into some dreadful sycophant... I've been one for some time...
CB: Aw, well , thank you...
MG: Well that's all you're getting from me... I'm going to be a complete arse**** to you from now on... but I think a lot of your fans are a little obsessive and hang on every word you say...
CB: Yeah, funny thing is... I don't mean half of what I say... which is alarming. There was a piece recently where it appeared that I was looking for a wife... which I'm not...
MG: Were you being offered people's sisters?
CB: Being denied other people's sisters more like... um... I suppose I get unusual emails, but most of the time I get message from nice, articulate funny people... so that's alright. It's funny... I try not to look... you know what I mean?
MG: That must be a real temptation though? I mean, I've accidentally caused a huge stink with some poor girl I saw on University Challenge...
CB: The formula always goes like this: The more virulently you slag someone off, the nicer that person will be... which leaves you thinking 'Who's the arsehole here?'
MG: You must be worried then, with the new show, because you're dealing with some real sharks... I mean, if you upset some Fleet Street editor...
CB: Someone was saying the other day that people in Fleet Street are cunning. They're wily and cunning in a way that people in TV aren't... they were saying it almost like a warning. I don't think anything we'll be saying... will be... I really don't know. I honestly don't know what the show is going to be like or what tone it's going to take. You'd think you'd meet a load of bastards and shits in television, but it really hasn't been my experience. It's probably like the civil service used to be or something... there's a lot of self-loathing in it...
MG: I was thinking though, that with 'news', you've got people like Piers Morgan who sent a load of paparazzi around to Ian Hislop's house to irritate him and find some dirt on him... did that cross your mind?
CB: Well, again, it didn't... but now you've said it... perhaps I'm not interesting enough to attack.
MG: Probably best that you throw out all that stuff in your Nazi memorabilia room or something?
CB: Or deliberately put loads of it there! 'Yeah? Yeah? So what?' I don't think it'll be a problem as we don't have as much knowledge as Private Eye...
MG: Are you treating the whole thing as... perhaps this isn't the right term... but throwaway?
CB: There will be bits that are more 'in depth', but we'll leave that to the experts we get in... like Nick Davies who wrote 'Flat Earth News'... brilliant book, go out and buy it... Adam Curtis doing a short film for us... so we've got people doing a more 'well informed' take...
MG: And then cut back to you doing a dance routine about bog roll?
CB: Yeah, cut back to me crying and wanking in my flat. (laughs) I really don't know... it's all a test of confidence and a test of... what happens. It should be interesting to see what the hell happens. It'll probably take a couple of shows for us to get in our stride... I imagine a lot of people will tune in and go "Urgh, it's not Screenwipe..."
MG: I think there's a fair amount of excitement about the show... I think the biggest test for the people who have been following your writing was whether Screenwipe was going to work at all. Once they got used to you as a... well... all sitting, all talking TV spud, it's a lot easier for them to go along for the ride almost...
CB: I suppose. It's sort of weird. It's like we're launching a new flavour of crisps or something. We might be the Cajun Squirrel of Screen Wipe spin-offs... or a new classic like Smoky Bacon... whatever we do, whenever we do anything new, I'm always wracked with doubt and trepidation. 'I'm shit, everything I do is shit, I've run out of ideas, I'm gonna go on air and everyone's gonna see through me...'
MG: I think that's a good thing to have though. The minute you feel like you deserve it, that's when you turn into a twat.
CB: I've still got that to come...
MG: The champagne Charlie?
CB: I'm so horribly riddled with self doubt in that respect... it's all a terrifying prospect... whenever we do a new show, whenever... fuck it! Anything is a terrifying prospect!
MG: What's it like having everyone else picking over the bones of what you do... things not even seen yet... for example... this conversation?
CB: It's good in a way because I can just admit that I don't know. I'm already behind with the writing... I'm always behind on the writing, which makes the teams life a misery. I supposed to hand in something today and I didn't. I procrastinate far too much.
MG: You should do it on purpose like Hunter S. Thompson used to do. He'd hand stuff in after deadline so the editors couldn't change his work...
CB: I suppose... I've tried it at The Guardian, handing in things late thinking 'they won't change that' and they just have.
MG: What, like 'Lee Harvey Oswald, where are you when we needed you?'
CB: Now, that was something they should've checked... oh dear... that was close to deadline actually... (mock weeps) What a dreadful period!
MG: I thought it was funny! It wasn't like you were offering to stump up the cash to have George W. Bush killed.
CB: You should've seen the emails. They were blood curdling... there were people offering to stump up the cash to have me killed!
The conservation descended into talking about "reviewing handfuls of shit", containing the line "You may get it to your lips, but you'd never swallow..." and about how a friend of mine described Charlie the first time he saw him as 'looking like the kind of person who might beat up black people', a scurrilous rumour about the smell of the crowd at CD:UK, Iggy Pop having "the body of a boiled race horse" and writing jokes on the skull shards of Robert Mugabe for the new show... some things, unrepeatable, legally dubious things, are way more interesting than the matter at hand.
However, thanks to the media at large, you can't say them because everyone takes everything so bloody seriously. And maybe, that's the point of Newswipe (with Charlie Brooker), coming soon to a TV set near you.
Newswipe with Charlie Brooker starts tonight on BBC Four at 10.35pm
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